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Bankroll Management |
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11-19-2007, 06:24 AM
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#1 (permalink)
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Administrator
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Bankroll Management
One of the questions I get asked most is: "What is a good bankroll to start with if you want to begin playing seriously?" There are so many variables it is impossible to give a general answer that will be accurate. Each person must examine their style of play, their game of choice, where they play, the limit they feel comfortable playing, and the reason for playing the game. After some serious thought, you might be able to come up with a ballpark figure.
If you search for information regarding bankroll, you might find some general rules of thumb. I have read that it is good to play with a bankroll of 300 times the amount of the big bet. This means if you want to play $1-2 limit, you should have a bankroll of $600. This is a good figure, but it is also a very general statement. You must first be aware of the type of player you are. If you are a tight, solid player, then you will probably not need as much money as a player who is involved in a lot of pots. When I first started my job as a prop player, my game of choice was Limit Omaha High Low Split. Whenever an opportunity came up for me to play the game, I jumped at the chance. There was another prop that enjoyed the game as much as I did and we usually ended up in the same game. I probably played 2 to 3 times as many hands as she did which meant my swings were higher. Our styles of play were totally different, but at the end of the week our bottom line was similar. I asked myself if I should change my style of play so my swings wouldn't be as high and the answer was easy... Absolutely not! This style of play works for me. I just need to make sure my bankroll is larger than some other people would need in the same game.
Another factor you must take into consideration when determining the size of your bankroll is the type of game you are playing. If you enjoy playing Stud, Triple Draw or Badugi, you will need more money than if you were playing Draw Poker. Some games have more betting rounds than others, so if you are going to play in the games with more betting rounds, then you should need a little more money than somebody playing a game of the same limit with less betting rounds.
No Limit Holdem is another game where you should have a lot more money. In a $100 restricted buy-in game, the blinds are $2-3. The 300x the big bet formula doesn't apply here at all. Anybody who has played No Limit Holdem knows that $900 would be way too small of a bankroll to ride out the swings of the game. I stated that when I first started, my game of choice was Omaha. Lately, the game I play most often is No Limit. I have had consecutive losing sessions where I have lost a total of $1500 in the small ($100 buy-in) game. Swings like that can beat a person down if they don't have enough money to be able to handle it. No Limit Holdem is probably the game where the swings will be the highest. I can handle the swings because I have enough money in my bankroll that I can lose for days on end and still have enough to get back into the game and not play with scared money. Scared money means you don't play your game properly because you are afraid that if you lose, you will lose your bankroll, and be out of action -- or even completely without money.
You must also decide what limit you feel comfortable playing. The basic guideline stated that in a $1-2 limit game, you should have $600. So in a $10-20 limit game, you should have $6000. It seems simple enough, but it isn't. In a smaller limit game, you will most likely be facing more opponents when you see a flop. Even if you only play premium hands, your swings will be relatively larger because you will win less hands overall (due to having more opponents) but the pots you win will be bigger. Generally speaking, your swings will be higher (relative to your bankroll) in smaller limit games. Therefore, you should start with a little more than the guideline.
One of the most important things to consider when determining your bankroll is the reason you play poker. If you have a regular job or another source of income, then the above guidelines should suit you just fine. If you plan on playing poker as your sole source of income, then things get much more complicated. A professional poker players needs are different than a recreational players (or even a semi-professional). A pro player lives off his bankroll. His bankroll is essentially his net worth.
While playing poker, you are bound to have fluctuations. When you are independently wealthy, the fluctuations only matter to themselves. If poker is your only source of income and you have fluctuations, you have to remove your monthly house payment from your bankroll when it comes due. Instead of earning your bankroll, you deplete it. The bankroll you had, you no longer have, and this occurred for reasons having basically nothing to do with poker, so it important to start with a lot more than the standard 300x.
The professional poker player should also consider that he should be making some money with his bankroll in other places besides the poker table. A bankroll should not just be in a drawer in your bedroom. If a player plays $30-60 regularly, they should have approximately $20,000. If a player has a $20,000 bankroll, the whole wad does not go on the table every time they sit down. A player should take some of the money (in this case perhaps $5000) to the casino and the rest should be in the bank, the stock market or any other place where it can make a profit. The reserve should be "working" for the player while the player is working at the poker table.
Everybody's bankroll will be different depending on life circumstance. Each player must answer a lot of questions before they even come up with an amount that will suit them. They must consider the game, the limit, the style of play (Las Vegas games tend to be tighter than Los Angeles games) and the reason for playing. Once a player does that, then they should be on their way. Just remember that it is better to have more than enough, than not enough. Winning a little less than you could have if you played bigger is a lot better of a bad thing than to go broke would be. Bankroll is for life.
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bankroll !! |
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11-19-2007, 06:57 AM
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#2 (permalink)
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FFD Poker Forum Member
slickster01 is offline
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bankroll !!
im just starting out i poker playing s n g's.......i'll be using 10% of my bank roll for each tourney i enter.......is this a good idea ????
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11-19-2007, 07:04 AM
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#3 (permalink)
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Administrator
Site Admin is offline
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Bankroll Management
Poker is a game played with and for money. Money is not only the way of keeping score, it is also your ammunition at the table. The nice thing about poker though is that you can choose how many units your money represents. In a $1-$2 table the blinds will be $0.50-$1, so if you have $100 in your bankroll this will be 100 units. That same $100 bankroll would only be 10 units in a $10-$20 game so make sure you choose a game within your means. This principle is the essence of bankroll management.
Poker Strategy - Bankroll Management
Calculating Risk of Ruin
Risk of ruin is term used to refer to the possibility of going broke. The idea behind it is that even good odds may not be worth it if losing prevents you from taking advantage of a more favorable position later. Risk of ruin calculations apply very well to tournament situations and also for calculating how much money to bring to a cash game. One thing to stress is that Risk of Ruin is only a consideration when you are playing with a fixed, non replenish-able bankroll. This is always the case in tournaments or sit n go's but for most casual cash game players this is never really true. You can always make a new deposit at some point because you probably still have additional sources of income. For someone who supports themselves solely off of poker winnings risk of ruin is a very real and legitimate concern.
Risk of Ruin is not a fixed value, but really an estimate based upon your historical results and the cost of playing in a given game against your bankroll. Many players continually maintain a set RoR to by varying the stakes they play based on their bankroll. This essentially eliminates the chances of going broke because as their bankroll dwindles they will continually move downwards in stakes until their positive expectation begins to over come their downturn. Of course for risk of ruin to be meaningful you must be a profitable player, a player who averages a loss will eventually go broke regardless of stakes. To calculate Risk of Ruin = e-2 x WR x BR ÷ (SD x SD) where e = Constant (2.718281828) and WR = Win Rate and SD = Standard Deviation and BR = your Bankroll
Poker Strategy - Bankroll Management - Risk of Ruin, Real world Application
So now you've figured out your win rate, your standard deviation and have come up with a bankroll requirement for each given level. Now what does this mean and how does risk of ruin work in real life? Well lets just say that you have established 5% as the RoR you are comfortable with and based on this and your win-rate and standard deviation you figure you will need about 500BB blinds at the level you are currently playing at. Perfect, but what if you now lose several hands? Or even have several losing sessions? At what point do you move down... This is important because as your bankroll dwindles the likelihood of your losing it all increases. By continually moving down stakes you will ensure your positive expectation eventually overcomes your losing streak. You should always have two number when playing, an upper limit where you will consider moving up the next level, and a lower limit where you will move down in limits to recoup and rebuild your bankroll. If 500 BB was the amount you needed to be comfortable at that level set a lower limit at 2-3 full buy-ins below this as time to move back down. By doing this your real world risk of ruin will always be zero, provided you are a winning player and not simply playing in games where you are outmatched.
Poker Strategy - Bankroll Management - Playing within your means
Poker can be a fun and rewarding hobby. If done right poker can even be a viable source of additional income. Even if you have a history of winning at poker though be sure not to over commit yourself. For individuals who wish to consider playing poker full time or professionally the best strategy is to make a modest initial investment and try and build a larger bankroll playing small stakes poker then as the bankroll increases gradually stepping up through the limits until such time as your profits in the game represent a comfortable living. The key though is to limit that initial investment. It is simply not reasonable to deposit thousands of dollars learning poker or seeing if you can make money. Perhaps the greatest virtue of online poker is the reduced rake and micro limit games available. These small stakes cash games and tournaments allow beginning players to cheaply hone skills and once proficient build up a large enough bankroll to begin playing for big money.
If you are a casual player or someone who only plays from time to time and you don't mind if poker costs you a little money as long as you have a good time, that's okay too. But you should still be practicing good money management. To avoid overspending on poker establish a deposit limit for yourself or poker allowance. Never exceed this limit, and when you have a really good day or week cash-out the profits. Keep a log or spreadsheet of your results. That way if your a big winner you'll know and you can take it up more seriously, and if your losing your money faster then you like you can step down limits. By playing at smaller limits you will be less vulnerable to overaggressive players bluffing you off pots and will have more chips to survive swings. Smaller tournaments also generally have weaker competition so by dropping down you may also win more games, which will definitely prolong your bankroll.
A good rule of thumb is if you for cash game limits is that if you are playing off a fixed bankroll never play more then 5% of your bankroll as the max table buy-in, if you are playing off a bankroll that can be reloaded frequently if necessary a reasonable level is 25% of your bankroll as the maximum table buy-in. Exact amounts vary widely depending on the individual player and of course are totally meaningless if long term you lose money as you will go broke no matter what, but these buy-ins should be sufficient to overcome standard variance for most players.
For players who simply don't have any money at all but love playing poker make sure to keep an eye out for good freerolls and no deposit poker bonuses. In general poker sites are very generous when acquiring new players and you often get small bankrolls to start out with for free and then build up a large enough account to cash-out and begin trying other sites until you find one you like.
Poker Strategy - Bankroll Management - Build your Poker Bankroll
Poker is a game played with money and for money. The game starts and ends at your wallet and dollars are basically the only meaningful way of keeping score. An important thing to realize is that poker is not a zero sum game, its actually a negative sum game. This is because the "house" or the poker room is taking a rake from every pot, or in tournaments a portion of the buy-in. This means if you win exactly your share of the pots in a cash game over time you will slowly lose money. The same applies to those sit and go tournaments, even though 1st place pays half of the prize pool winning 1 out 5 ten player games will not even let you break even. This means the players who are making money are beating you and everyone else at the table by enough to get you to pay their rake and still leave a little something extra! These rake fees are small in proportion to the size of the pots or the actual tournament buy-in but over time they definitely add up, this is why poker is now a multi-billion dollar industry and why the poker rooms are willing to offer massive deposit bonuses to attract new players. Because these bonuses are tied to a set number or player points the site is guaranteed to make money (they are paying you your bonus out of the rake fees you contribute to the site), but with a bonus you will be paying far less rake and this can make a HUGE difference in building up your initial poker bankroll. It is not uncommon to see bonuses between 100%-200% of your initial deposit. This is essentially free money as you earn it by playing poker which you were going to do anyway. Always try and get maximum value out of these bonuses by making larger initial deposit when you join and check poker forums frequently for poker reload bonuses. A reload bonus is when a poker room offers their existing players a deposit bonus to make a new deposit.
If you don't have the money to go out a make a large initial deposit to take advantage of these free offers that doesn't mean you are stuck playing poker for play money. There are many sites that will actually give you a small poker bankroll completely free. These initial bankroll are usually very small 5$-25$ but will give you an opportunity to try some real money play and a chance to build a more substantial bankroll with absolutely no risk. By running through several of these offers you should have some success at least once. Withdraw your winnings to a Neteller account or other online wallet and you are now ready to go shopping for a new poker home. If you fail the first few times don't worry We have several of the no deposit bonuses listed in our poker rooms section and will be continuing to add new offers as they become available.
Assuming you have already done all of the no deposit promos and spent your winnings (we're hoping) or just had a bad run you can still get yourself a poker bankroll with no investment by playing in freerolls. PokerForumSite generally doesn't advocate the freerolls hosted by most sites because they tend to teach you bad habits (people play very differently in freerolls then they do in other games) and also because in many cases the hourly rate offered by freerolls is impossibly low even if you are winning the events outright. That being said a freeroll is better then playing for play chips because at least there is some chance of winning money. Check back shortly as we are currently evaluating the expected value of the various regularly scheduled freerolls offered by the online poker rooms. We will update you shortly with the best freeroll tournaments to play to get the most value for your time.
Poker Strategy - Bankroll Management - Calculating & Forecasting your Hourly Rate in Poker
As more and more players beginning taking poker from a hobby or pastime to fulltime job or maybe just a source of additional income people are becoming more interested in trying to determine there hourly rate with the idea being that once they hit a certain level they can quit the day job and turn "pro". Well the first thing is calculating your existing hourly rate isn't so hard as long as you are keeping detailed notes, many programs like pokertracker will calculate your hourly win-rate for you along with all kinds of other stats.. Using the stats you have accumulated take your total winnings and divide by hours played. This can lead to some very deceptive estimates though. Lets say player A has played 215 hours of 1$-2$ no limit holdem and has lost 2000$ and has played 35 hours of 10$-20$ is up 9000$, he might take these numbers and do the math 9K won - 2K lost = 7K profit, 250 hours played = 36$ an hour! And this player would now be thinking "wow time to quit my job!". In reality this number is very deceptive. In the game where Player A has logged most of his play he is a substantial loser, down almost 1000 big blinds, in the larger game where he has only logged a few hours and he is up but only 450 big blinds, so assuming he was playing equal stakes throughout his play he would still be down 550 big blinds. If player A continues to play at the 10$-20$ level there is a very good chance his upswing will be erased over time and he will actually be losing money at a much faster rate then at the 1$-2$ level. In general it is a good idea to examine hourly rate separately for each limit or level you play, or if you must combine results at least first convert all figures to big blind amounts and calculate your win rate using this unit. By doing this you will get a much better picture of your actual average hourly earnings. These results will fluctuate wildly if you are using a small sample size so you really cant put too much faith into the number until you have logged thousands of playing hours.
Poker Strategy - Bankroll Management - Tracking your Poker Results
Accurately logging and tracking all of your poker play is an important step on the road to poker success. By keeping good records you should be able to better determine which games are the most profitable and where you are losing money. You will also be able to accurately gauge your level of play which is helpful when making the decision to change limits. Their are several options for logging your poker play, and something as simple as an excel spreadsheet is a good place to start. The one problem with something like a simple spreadsheet is it become cumbersome after time and doesn't give you a lot of the details you might get other solutions. A really great spreadsheet for tracking tournament results can be found free here. We are working on creating a variant for cash game players.
If you are a serious player you may want to consider going with an option like Poker Tracker of Poker Office. Both of these programs automatically track your results as well as a wide variety of game statistics. They will not only tell you what games you are winning with, but which individual hands and positions give you the most profit or cost you most chips.
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limit games poker |
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05-29-2008, 03:22 AM
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#4 (permalink)
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FFD Poker Forum Member
twoplustwo is offline
Join Date: Sep 2007
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limit games poker
Quote:
Originally Posted by slickster01
im just starting out i poker playing s n g's.......i'll be using 10% of my bank roll for each tourney i enter.......is this a good idea ????
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10% is too much, that means if you lose 10 sit n go's your done, you should increase your bankroll first playing limit tables or small stakes nl games on Absolute Poker
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05-29-2008, 04:18 AM
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#5 (permalink)
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FFD Poker Forum Member
BlackJack.com is offline
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Play BlackJack at BlackJack.com <click there
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05-29-2008, 08:33 AM
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#6 (permalink)
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FFD Poker Forum Member
Tickolish1 is offline
Join Date: May 2008
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This Is Excellent Bankroll Management For Holdem!
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06-15-2008, 08:41 PM
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#7 (permalink)
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FFD Poker Forum Member
only5mtt6max is offline
Join Date: Jun 2008
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yes. brm very good.
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08-06-2008, 03:56 AM
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#8 (permalink)
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Administrator
PokerCashFlow.com is offline
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